The Love-Hate Relationship with Creativity

Posted on March 10, 2026 by knlistman

Despite current praise of novelists, playwrights, artists, musicians and other kinds of creative people, the behavior that leads to these careers is often discouraged during childhood, adolescence and beyond. This is not just a matter of people trying to protect their loved ones from a career that won’t pay the bill. Acceptance of authority–being obedient, respectful and polite, following rules, and showing more respect to those in power–is often indicative of a conformist. Creative people make judgments and evaluate situations for themselves, which means that they often do not do what they are told. Their actions are based on their own internal beliefs and desires. A number of them are often non-conformist who really do not care if they fit the standards that society expects.

This often begins during the years spent in school. Researchers in creativity have found that the creative characteristic, inquisitiveness, can be exhibited by talking a lot or demanding responses, especially by younger students.[1] How else can they find out about new things? On one hand educators praise intrinsic motivation, while dreading some students that are intrinsically motivated. If one of these students actually becomes famous, the teachers will often “forget” how difficult they were.

Both creative adolescents and adults are open to new ideas and critical of other’s ideas. This is less of an inherent conflict for creative students than it is for adults. The creative person tends to have fewer friends because many view criticism as a sign of rejection.[2] As a person who is inventive in writing, art, music and other fields becomes older, they will not remain the same. They often prefer to work alone not because they desire solitude, but because they sense others are wary of their non-comforming behavior. Their remoteness, a form of self-protection, is often viewed as snobbishness.

The love-hate relationship with creativity and the creative person is not limited to education. In most aspects of life people desire the product of creativity, while avoiding the producer of the creative. This is complicated by the fact that artists, writers and musicians can become enemies of their creative cohorts in the competition to achieve. Some that would like to gain fame in creative fields, don’t shy away because of the problem with earning a living as much as the fear of rejection for being different and difficult.

[1]  Torrence, E.P. & Khatena, J. (1970) What Kind of Person Are You? A brief screening device for identifying creatively gifted adolescents and adults. Gifted Child Quarterly, 14, 71-75
[2]  Khatena, J. & Torrence, E.P. (1998). Khatena-Torrance Creative Perception Inventory – Instruction Manual. Bensenville, IL: Scholastic Testing Service, Inc.

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Social Learning and Creative Writing

Posted on February 23, 2026 by knlistman

There is a trend to use existing social media (Facebook, Discord, Reddit, Quora, Instagram) to create a social learning group in which members collaborate and share knowledge with each other. So, I’ve visited some of these groups that might interest me in instructional design, classic literature, and writing fiction. Initially the posts share new information and current hot topics in the field, then they either turn to arguments or AI generated inquiries that make me wonder about how useful machine learning actually is when it comes to writing.

As a writer I am not looking for a list of literary techniques used to create tension in romance and mystery novels. (I believe the better term for these is tropes.) I am looking for more complex and nuanced information. When I search social media related to creative writing I want to uncover the changes that are occurring, individual’s experiences, and even the threats to this field. I also appreciate post about the history of fiction. Accounts of former authors, if these are realistic and true, bring me back to earth. Writing plays, poetry, short fiction or novels has often been a precarious and exhausting career.

Despite the number of people that merge using social media and learning this is not the same as social learning. According to Albert Bandura social learning happens when people observe others and model their behavior on what they see and hear. While much of social learning research concerns observing live people and imitating their actions, social learning also occurs from what one hears about others or sees on media. Bandura proposed that in order for someone to model their behavior on others, there had to be a payoff – something that the others gained – such as acceptance into a group. Also, social learning did not necessarily have to result in change of behavior. For example, even if I didn’t want to behave like people in a specific Facebook group I might still want to observe what they have to say.

So what does this have to do with learning on social media. First, people certainly imitate the type of content posted. I first created a Facebook page assuming it could be used to communicate with other professionals in education and creative circles. If someone voiced a concern or grievance there was a lot of sympathy, but no solutions. Many posts were copied and occasionally something was new. The personal posts that I saw on Facebook were a reflection of what people wanted their lives to be. By observing others, we start comparing ourselves. If our lives are boring, we use it to create drama. We would all like to have the kind of creativity and fame as authors in which others follow the minutia of our lives, but we don’t.

Photo by K.N. Listman

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Writing with Kennings

Posted on January 20, 2026 by knlistman

Creating imagery can be confusing. Ancient literature is difficult not just because of archaic words, but also figures of speech that are strange to our ears. These ancient authors were attempting to help the reader see the action. For example, if you translate an early English text, such as Beowulf into completely modern words, students would still stumble over old idioms such as whale road, sail road and swan road. All of these describe the sea. Huge whales and sailing ships travel the ocean, and I suppose the occasional brave swan could be found floating on waves not far from shore. Are our highways, freeways, and interstates any less confusing than whale roads, sail roads and swan roads? For us these types of roads may conjure up distinct images, but in reality they overlap. 

Beowulf also has a person called the breaker of rings, I could see somebody hacking gold rings apart. Could this be a thief preparing his latest heist to be melted? Actually he is a leader, such a minor king or chieftain. Chances are that he obtained these gold rings by legitimate trading more often than he did by attacking villages and stealing their goods. The breaker of rings doesn’t have to be a sneaky thief. Leaders are also called givers of rings as well as breakers of rings. I suppose a more successful king could have obtained enough gold to give his followers entire rings rather than breaking them into parts to have enough for everyone.

Those figures of speech called kennings make it difficult to read words written thousands of years ago. But can you imagine someone from the eighth century reading ordinary writing today? Even if we never mentioned modern inventions such as airplanes, automobiles, computers and TVs, we are constantly using idiomatic phrases. “Hit the road” means to travel and “hit the sack”” means to go to bed, but it sounds like we are slamming our fists into the pavement or the mattress.

Older languages are often more complex than the simplified grammar of our day. Many people fail to realize that the difference between thee and ye is the number of people indicated by these pronouns. Thee refers to one “you” and ye is used when referring to multiple people. Ye is like the southern idiom “y’all” or the northern version “you guys.” However, some of those giver of rings thought that they were big stuff and insisted on being called by the plural ye. If you think of thee as a polite term, you are wrong. It is the familiar and equalitarian version of you.

Learning to understand figures of speech from another time and place is one of the steps to understanding diverse worlds. Our own kennings fill our conversations and writing with phrases that we find familiar. It is hard to see these as not ordinary. So, you can improve the otherworld feeling of histories, fantasies and science fiction stories by developing your own kennings.

Posted in allusions, Creativity, Literary devices, Literature, Style and voice, Translations | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , | 1 Comment

No! I’m Not Insane

Posted on January 4, 2026 by knlistman

Have you ever seen Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs inverted so it is upside down? If you are a writer or any kind of creative person, you should familiarize yourself with this. It is balanced on the tiny point of self-actualization at the bottom and everything else extends and spreads out from this tiny fulcrum point. It is also called the “Artist’s hierarchy of needs” because creating is more important to them than eating or sleeping. Despite Maslow’s theory that fulfillment of physical and psychological needs lead to self-actualization writers and other creatives seem driven by something else that often causes them to ignore basic needs.  So it’s time to look at some competing ideas about what drives people to do this.

Sigmund Freud, the father of modern psychotherapy, saw creativity as a socially acceptable defense mechanism for expressing socially unacceptable urges.  In other words being creative was the way to sublimate that pesky improper sex drive. He felt the creative process was driven by the unhappy suffering of unfulfilled fantasies. Basically being creative was akin to being neurotic.[1]

Sarnoff Mednick came up with the associative theory. Creativity is a response to stimulus (sort of like drooling when you smell fresh hot cinnamon rolls). When a stimulus hits the senses, a creative response would be to think of an extremely remotely related idea. This was tested using words, with the theory that the more remote the idea was from the original word, the more creative the person was. Mednick is most famous for his research that associates psychosocial disorders (i.e. acting like a criminal) with genes that you inherit from your parents.[2]

Carl Rogers saw creativity in a similar light to Abraham Maslow. He thought creativity was the result of healthy psychological growth, and the highest form of self-actualization.  He saw creative people as being wonderfully balanced, open to new experiences, with internally based control.[3] I’m sure most creative people would like to view themselves this way. However, many are honest and admit to deep insecurities. And of course, most of us have run into a few of the difficult, smug, prima donna types.

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi does not see creativity as strictly residing within a person, rather it is an interaction between a person and society. Social systems and cultures determine what is creative and what is not. To be considered creative, an individual must strike a balance between coming up with a novel idea and relating to accepted conventions. Otherwise their work will not be viewed as creative. He also has the idea that when creative people are working they become so fulfilled in their involvement that they forget about other things – like food and sleep.[4]

Finally we come full circle to Albert Rothenburg who proposes that creative people use a certain kind of thinking that allows them to consider two opposite concepts at the same time – sort of like two objects occupying the same space resulting in something new. His research shows that creative thought processes are not logical and actually resemble those of the mentally ill. However, creative people are aware that they are indulging in ‘crazy’ thinking while they are doing this – at least most of the time.[5]

[1] Rothenburg, A. &  Hausman. C., (1976). The creativity question.  Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
[2] Mednick. S. (1962) The associative basis of the creative process. Psychological Review. 69, 220-232.
[3] Rogers, C. (1962). Toward a theory of creativity. In Parnes, S. Harding, H. (Eds.) A source book for creative thinking. New York: Scribners.
[4] Csikszentmihalyi, M. (1988). Society, culture, and person: A systems view of creativity. In Sternberg, R. (Ed.), The nature of creativity. New York: Cambridge University Press.
[5] Rothenburg, A. &  Hausman. C., (1976). The creativity question.  Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
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Is “Show Don’t Tell” Good Advice?

Posted on December 22, 2025 by knlistman

When running out of advice to help a struggling author improve their novel, a more seasoned author may point out the benefits of showing rather than telling. What exactly does that mean? Unless you are producing a picture book, it will be composed mostly, if not entirely, of words. Words tell us about characters and events. Pictures and movies show.

So what kind of word-filled book shows the story? Have you ever heard of Finnegan’s Wake by James Joyce ? You experience everything including the barely comprehensible conversations in Irish brogue. But, there’s little help from the author in determining what’s driving this story. Instead you must deduce events from passages bombarding you with descriptions.

If you do nothing but show your work might resemble La Jalousie by Alain Robbe-Grillet in which scenes record the slits of light through the blinds, the sweet, acrid scent of the lilacs, and the indolent movements of his wife outside. Each one is painted in extensive detail, but the reader must figure out what the wife is really doing and what the unnamed husband is imagining as he spies on her.

If you always show when writing you have a good chance of boring the reader. People unable to deal with this multitude of sights, sounds, smells, textures and inner dialog will simply stop reading. For example, you could write “The muscles in his neck contracted so his face shifted from the people towards the blank plastered wall as the stinging saline fluid collecting in the edges of his eyes begin to drip down across his cheeks.” Or, you could tell your audience, “He turned away so no one could see the tears.” This decision to determine the style that expresses content in the most convincing manner is one the writer makes multiple times.

Sometimes the character’s intentions or interior feelings must be named so that the reader is able to perceive it.

Readers may not comprehend what’s happening when a character shuffles his feet in the dust, or rubs his chin, or stares blankly into space while another character is talking. Sometimes their intentions or interior feelings must be named so that the reader is able to perceive it. Telling may be required when characters display subtle emotions such as anxiousness, restlessness or boredom. Many readers prefer to be told directly what is happening when this is accompanied by enough description that they feel present at the scene. However, when a scene seems to drag on, it’s time to truncate details.

Telling takes far fewer words than showing. Each writer must learn to balance these two. How do you know when to tell your audience and when to show them? Try this exercise, write the scene in two manners—one that shows most of the action, and one that directly reveals what is happening. Review your writing, and choose what works best. You may discover that combining these styles is the key to overcoming the “show don’t tell” advice.

Photo by Dayon Rodio

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What Exactly is Imagery?

Posted on December 8, 2025 by knlistman

What is the difference between describing details and creating imagery? Perhaps I should ask what is the difference in describing details that are exquisite and those full of boring minutia. The concept is difficult to explain because it does depend on how much that readers desire to immerse themselves in the scene. I may want my readers to see, feel, smell, hear and even taste the locale of the story. However, a passage written for all five senses can make a person dizzy.

I decided to research what some experts in the fields of communication had to say about imagery.

Noam Chomsky, a linguist and cognitive scientist, who is known for his political involvement has examined McLuhan’s area of expertise, how the public perceives advertisements. According to Chomsky:

“Everyone knows that when you look at a television ad, you do not expect to get information. You expect to see delusion and imagery.”[1]

Marshall McLuhan, was known for his communication and media theories, and particularly the application of his theories. His most famous quote is “the medium is the message.”  He wrote extensively on how marketing and advertising appeals to people. However, occasionally he commented on the realm of politics:

“Politics will eventually be replaced by imagery. The politician will be only too happy to abdicate in favor of his image, because the image will be much more powerful than he could ever be.”[2]

There is a similar theme running through both of these quotes, the idea that imagery provides more than actually exists in the object or person being described.  The literary device of imagery can be defined as using words to create a mental picture. However, the mental picture is not simply what exists, but more than that. It is an amped up description that provides a greater intensity.

When imagery is used to describe a simple sponge cake cookie called a madeleine dipped in tea, it takes on a taste, texture and color that make it magically memorable. This technique used by Marcel Proust introduce memories of his childhood in his multiple tome In Search of Lost Time (also known as Remembrance of Things Past).

Techniques that move imagery to this level are comparisons known as similes and metaphors. Similes typically deal with more superficial appearances. For example, “The sky overflowed with gray clouds, dark as slate.” Metaphors typically deal with deeper structural similarities as in the sky is a vast, turbulent ocean of air.  This similarity can be stretched into complex extended metaphors. However in each case the writer is adding nuances to the description that are beyond simply what is observed. Imagery adds connotations which builds another level of perception and results in something being more appealing or distasteful than it actually is.

In the end what the reader desires is not simply to feel like they are present with the author but to be able to see the intangibles: the feelings, desires and very beliefs that drive the words on the written page. Remember the imagery in commercials: the man standing stalwart in front of the flapping flag sells stability not the candidate, and the car rushing down the open road sells freedom, rather than a brand of automobile. People do not want to read books to show them reality, but something beyond it.

[1] http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/noamchomsk635602.html

[2] http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/marshallmc135596.html

Artwork by J. W. Listman

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The Writing Sampler

Posted on November 22, 2025 by knlistman

I recall a time when I could amble through a mall and be approached by marketing interviewers. If I fit the criteria, I could spend twenty minutes of time providing my opinion in exchange for a few dollars or coupons for free products. I preferred those interviews in which I could sample foods for a company trying to create a new flavor. No one was upset at my choice among multiple shades of flavor to determine which was the most popular. It is much more difficult to present precious words for sampling to a writing critique group. Of course, literary critique groups only expect one variation of your work, but rarely is everyone in the group pleased with it. After belonging to a number of critique groups I began to recognize the paths that different members followed.

The grammarians are very precise about grammar and usage rules. Therefore, they will point out all known errors. Some even ask the author to correct preferences that are not errors, such as using a preposition at the end of sentence or using a conjunction, such as “and” or “but” at the beginning. People tend to learn usage rules that are acceptable during the time of their education. Then, they stick with these even though the language continues to change. Even when people change their writing style with the time they should not expunge all adverbs, dialogue tags or passive verbs. These have a legitimate place in writing.

The trendsetters have read current bestsellers and books about writing composed by currently famous authors. They direct me to change all writing to follow styles used right now. Some of these comments may be useful. For example, I really don’t want an “info dump” following my exciting first scene. However, I do not always have a dramatic first scene, but one that hints at the drama to follow may suffice. I don’t want my coming of age novel forced into a horror/suspense format.

Content critics uncover events or character’s actions that are not ringing true. They may be true for the life I have lived but not theirs. Or perhaps the book is beginning to drag. and they think I should add a bit of tension or trim some excess details. This is where I find my own strength in providing critique information. It is also one of the hardest to quantify when it comes to the usefulness of the advice as it is not rule driven.

Because opinions are a matter of taste it may work better for group members to read each other’s work and provide comments before the critique group meets. That way people will receive comments from these different viewpoints. The other option is providing written feedback. Nobody has to hear what the other members said about your work. But the people providing the critique do not receive any feedback on the usefulness of their comments either. I’ve often heard that criticism should only provide an indication of what is wrong without ever telling the other person how to fix it. This provides a safe place to hide for the person who tells me to get rid of passive tense. If I request to know how to reword the passive text, I put the other person on the spot. Their results must sound better than my own writing. 

Perhaps critiquing should be more like the marketing interviews. The “interviewer” asks specific questions about their writing, we all give answers, and then enjoy our free samples and treats.

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Classics Don’t Qualify as Comps

Posted on November 2, 2025 by knlistman

Before attending my first writer’s conference in Oklahoma, I poured over the biography of all the speakers. Each one was asked to disclose a classic novel in their want to read list. Despite the different books listed I was shocked to realize that I had read them all except for one, The Mill on the Floss by George Eliot. However, that claim didn’t make me extremely well read. Multiple speakers mention Anna Karenina, perhaps because a movie based on the classic had been produced in 2012.

During lunch at that same conference, I sat across the table from an editor seeking a new kind of book which she described as very dark, “the darker the better.” Then, the keynote speaker addressed the entire room, inquiring if any of us had the experience of reading works by an author and wishing to write like that.

I whispered, “That would be The Idiot by Dostoevsky.

The editor snapped, “Nobody writes like that anymore.”

Dostoevsky wrote classics, so this editor simply could not see his novels as comparable to current best sellers.

The Idiot revolves around a naïve Prince Myshkin in a corrupt Russian society that was pretty dark. One man was dangerously obsessed with a woman, while that same woman grew merciless towards the man who had abused her for years. The Idiot was an extremely dark book despite skirting around explicit descriptions of cruelty. Perhaps a modern version of it would have been exactly what the editor was looking for. However, Dostoevsky wrote classics so this editor simply could not see his novels as comparable to current best sellers.

This brings up the difficulty of providing agents and publishers with “comps” (books comparable to the one that the author is submitting). As I read a long list of instructions written by agents describing what they required I noted the short time periods for acceptable comps. Few would accept books published more than ten years ago. But, one insisted that writers not bother him if their comps were books that had been on the scene more than two years. This agent was too eager to obtain an author producing a sure thing, emulating what was currently selling. This short range of years for comps increased the likelihood of receiving works that read like many others. I was certainly not going to interrupt his little bubble by submitting any of my own attempts to create a unique novel.

While many authors want their work described as similar to current best-selling authors, I fret about writing a novel that imitates another work too much. I don’t want to produce a mere imitation. I realize that not a lot of current works deal with the souls of people in the way that Dostoevsky’s novels do. However, even if I wished to write like him, I am not familiar enough with nineteenth century Russian society. My work may be influenced by his in the way conversations reveal interior thoughts and characters play games to manipulate others. But, I do not want to regurgitate something too similar to his work.

The best way to avoid producing work which simply mimics other authors is to have a wide-range of reading, a range that goes well past one’s lifetime and encompasses the work of multiple centuries and distant societies. I have noted an increasing disregard for notable authors of the past centuries. Does writing well depend on being well read? No, but I’m not sure of that anymore.

A counter question has been growing in my mind — does being well-read actually hamper a writer’s ability to publish popular books, today? Knowledge of classic authors from past centuries is not necessary to be considered well-read today. However, authors can feel free to copy characters and rewrite scenes from these novels without being concerned about people recognizing this content. Evidently, nobody writes like them, or even reads them, anymore.

Posted in Drama and movies, Literary devices, Psychology, Teaching writing skills, Trends in books | Tagged , , , , , , , , | 3 Comments

Dealing with Painful Critiques

Posted on October 19, 2025 by knlistman

Educators often do not recognize their most creative students. I witnessed examples of this behavior as teachers described which poems they preferred in an anthology written by students. The cheerful rhyming poems were often considered better than those dealing with serious topics using unique metaphors and imagery. Do educators find works that bring up difficult questions unacceptable? How do they feel about students that produce them?

Both majors in creative fields and education majors place willingness to take risks high on their list of creative traits. However, the education majors gave high self-esteem first place when I gathered data for a research project. The teachers advised maintaining a classroom with an accepting atmosphere, free from criticism.

This did not match the recommendations of people studying creative fields. Both creative writing and art majors agreed that being around creative people was an important factor. But, self-esteem wasn’t even mentioned. They preferred honest critiques of their work from other more experienced artists.

Creative writers sought out critiques, willing for others to review their precious work while secretly hoping the reviewer would say it was amazing. But most writers understood that the praise provided by friends and family members was not useful. They needed people who were not afraid to let them know what was wrong with their work-in-progress.

Alex Osborn, known for founding the Creative Problem-Solving Institute, set up a structure for group creative brainstorming. One rule to free people from creative inhibitions is to forbid criticism and judgment during initial brainstorming. All ideas are to be expressed without any negative feedback because people tend to champion their own ideas at the expense of other better ideas. It only takes a small minority set on “defending their turf” to have a detrimental effect. [1]

However, when producing ideas for creative products, rules change. Research conducted in both the United States and France examined the result of brainstorming groups. Some groups were told not to criticize the ideas of colleagues while the other groups were was encouraged to debate these ideas. Those allowing debate generally came up with superior results. However, some restrictions were applied so no one person was allowed to monopolize the brainstorming session.[2]

“Brainstorming techniques have specifically admonished people ‘not to criticize’ their own and others’ ideas, a tenet that has gone unexamined. In contrast, there is research showing that dissent, debate and competing views have positive value, stimulating divergent and creative thought.” [2]

Most teachers say they want to maintain a classroom with an open and accepting atmosphere–one that is free from criticism. Is this a realistic goal? Is it even a good one? If the quality of work makes no difference in how it is received, why put in the extra effort to produce something that is excellent? People in creative fields will agree with the need for a stimulating environment, but not with the lack of criticism. Asking others for critiques can encourage innovative ideas.

People in the corporate world find creative colleagues difficult for the same reasons that some educators do. Employees with inventive ideas tend to level criticism at others more frequently.[3] But most creative people do not seem hurt as much by criticism as the general population is. Both innovative students and employees take the anxiety resulting from a negative evaluation of their work and convert it into energy. This fuels their drive to be even more unique.[4]

[1] Osborn, Alex. F. (1953) Applied imagination: Principles and procedures of creative thinking

[2] Nemeth, Charlan J. Personnaz, Bernard. Personnaz, Marie. Goncalo, Jack A. (2004) The liberating role of conflict in group creativity: A study in two countries. European Journal of Social Psychology,Volume 34, Issue 4, pages 365–374,

[3] Torrance, E. Paul. ‎(1963) The Creative Personality And The Ideal Pupil. Teachers College Record, 65, 220-226
[4] Johns Hopkins University news release, August 21, 2012, Don’t Get Mad, Get Creative: Social Rejection Can Fuel Imagination, JHU Carey Researcher Finds
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The Power of Laughter

Posted on October 5, 2025 by knlistman
Detail from “Officer and Laughing Girl” by Johannes Vermeer.

Evidently girls between the ages of 11 and 18 all over the world laugh more than any other group. They even laugh when nothing is particularly amusing. However, the very sound of an initial giggle seems to generate the impulse for laughter to spread. In high school this shrill twitter can bring a class to a halt. I have often suspected that was the reason that the girls were giggling so much. It turns out that I was not far from right. Girls don’t giggling all the time because they are having fun, but because they are building their first line of defense. Giggling is an attempt to gain allies in a conflict. They are waging war from a position of weakness as evidenced by their weapon of choice, laughter, but waging it nonetheless.

The gigglers sense that they have little authority over others.

The gigglers sense that they have little authority over others. They may be a female in a male dominated society, a youth in culture where older people are acknowledged leaders, or less educated and experienced in a world espousing intellectual ability and technological savvy. Delicate chortling is a way of seducing those in power into helping and not attacking them. The people for whom the giggling is performed are often well aware that it is done to appease them rather than for any humorous words they have said.

The gigglers live within a hierarchical framework, a kind of caste system based on power in society. They have discovered that the placating nature of a chuckle usually works better than attempting a rational discussion, which places both parties in a position of equality. Laughter is their choice tool for manipulating others. They typically laugh to appease someone they view as having a superior position. However, if you observe a giggler talking to someone that they feel they are above (such as a younger sibling or child) and the laughter frequently disappears, and is sometimes replace by a demanding voice.

While researching the psychology of laughter, I found an interesting Radio Lab called “How Does Laughing Affect Us?” Vanderbilt University associate professor of psychology JoAnne Bachorowski concluded that men laugh more around their bosses and women laugh louder around men they don’t know because “the giggling girls have power.” They use excessive laughter to shield themselves, and to gain the attention and protection..

Want to know more? – https://www.radiolab.org/podcast/91593-how-does-laughing-affect-us

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